Microsoft alternative - open source project?
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@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
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@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The funny thing about all of this is that I have a hard time believing that CERN cannot pay for MS licensing. When it is sponsored by 22 countries. Not to mention it's importance.
Possible bluff?
I don't think the concern is just about licensing, but maintenance and audit concerns and restrictions placed on it by those countries.
Not to mention all of the management overhead of licensing for a project of this scale.
Maybe, but other things need to be licensed so they still will require a team. I am sure they dont use 100% FOSS at CERN.
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
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@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
I don't believe their goal is to break even, just to reduce the overhead on (trivial things, like Desktop environments) and put that money towards science.
They aren't going closed source, they are already there and are looking to use open source software to do their work. They simply aren't discussing what open source software and packages they are going to use publicly (from the looks of it).
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@IRJ I assume you mean Microsoft CoreOS? If so, again it's an MS product that is being offered for free and if it is truly OS can be edited to remove such features.
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The funny thing about all of this is that I have a hard time believing that CERN cannot pay for MS licensing. When it is sponsored by 22 countries. Not to mention it's importance.
Possible bluff?
I don't think the concern is just about licensing, but maintenance and audit concerns and restrictions placed on it by those countries.
Not to mention all of the management overhead of licensing for a project of this scale.
Maybe, but other things need to be licensed so they still will require a team. I am sure they dont use 100% FOSS at CERN.
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
Now I'm really lost - who's going closed source?
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@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
I don't believe their goal is to break even, just to reduce the overhead on (trivial things, like Desktop environments) and put that money towards science.
That only makes sense if you have a net gain. Otherwise they are losing more money towards science. Budgeting for Software licensing when being funded is totally legitimate. It is a cost of doing business and expected. Is it a cost anyone wants to pay HELL NO. Does it mean it's worth coming at as a net negative? Probably not from a financial or funding standpoint.
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
OK - I think you are thinking this whole thing is about CERN going to a Microsoft based Open Source solution? that's now how I read this at all. I read it as, Today, CERN pays MS tons of money.. and MS now wants even more because of their new contracts... so CERN wants to DUMP Microsoft and their licensing, as well as all other non FOSS software they currently deploy.
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@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
I don't believe their goal is to break even, just to reduce the overhead on (trivial things, like Desktop environments) and put that money towards science.
They aren't going closed source, they are already there and are looking to use open source software to do their work. They simply aren't discussing what open source software and packages they are going to use publicly (from the looks of it).
Wouldn't it make more sense to do this on the application side? If all their apps become SaaS side as much as they can? Make as many apps only dependent on a web browser. I understand they wouldnt be able to replace everything. Especially high powered scientific apps that could not be hosted anyway. In that case, it seems like the Windows license would a fraction of the cost to a software license.
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@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
OK - I think you are thinking this whole thing is about CERN going to a Microsoft based Open Source solution? that's now how I read this at all. I read it as, Today, CERN pays MS tons of money.. and MS now wants even more because of their new contracts... so CERN wants to DUMP Microsoft and their licensing, as well as all other non FOSS software they currently deploy.
You know I read that article a few times, too. Now that I am reading it for the 3rd or 4th time I am understanding it. Now it makes total sense we they wouldnt share this project.
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
I don't believe their goal is to break even, just to reduce the overhead on (trivial things, like Desktop environments) and put that money towards science.
They aren't going closed source, they are already there and are looking to use open source software to do their work. They simply aren't discussing what open source software and packages they are going to use publicly (from the looks of it).
Wouldn't it make more sense to do this on the application side? If all their apps become SaaS side as much as they can? Make as many apps only dependent on a web browser. I understand they wouldnt be able to replace everything. Especially high powered scientific apps that could not be hosted anyway. In that case, it seems like the Windows license would a fraction of the cost to a software license.
Sure, those that can't be moved to a FOSS OS of course won't be... but this isn't just about OS's.. I think it's about all software... moving away from licensed phone systems, away from licenses OSes, away from licensed applications - all where possible. The net gain is to stop paying for licenses where ever possible. Sure MS is the biggest thing they are moving away from because they had this huge name they could put in front of people especially in light of the new contract and their costs going up 10X with MS alone.. but why stop there? Why not make this change holistic if possible, where possible (again as @IRJ mentioned, there is likely software that's doesn't have a FOSS alternative or at least a version that will run on a FOSS OS).
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
OK - I think you are thinking this whole thing is about CERN going to a Microsoft based Open Source solution? that's now how I read this at all. I read it as, Today, CERN pays MS tons of money.. and MS now wants even more because of their new contracts... so CERN wants to DUMP Microsoft and their licensing, as well as all other non FOSS software they currently deploy.
You know I read that article a few times, too. Now that I am reading it for the 3rd or 4th time I am understanding it. Now it makes total sense we they wouldnt share this project.
LOL - OK that makes more sense then
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@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative open source project:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
The break even is really hard for me to see. Unless you could convince alot of free help on the project. Going closed source probably isnt the best way for that.
I don't believe their goal is to break even, just to reduce the overhead on (trivial things, like Desktop environments) and put that money towards science.
They aren't going closed source, they are already there and are looking to use open source software to do their work. They simply aren't discussing what open source software and packages they are going to use publicly (from the looks of it).
Wouldn't it make more sense to do this on the application side? If all their apps become SaaS side as much as they can? Make as many apps only dependent on a web browser. I understand they wouldnt be able to replace everything. Especially high powered scientific apps that could not be hosted anyway. In that case, it seems like the Windows license would a fraction of the cost to a software license.
Sure, those that can't be moved to a FOSS OS of course won't be... but this isn't just about OS's.. I think it's about all software... moving away from licensed phone systems, away from licenses OSes, away from licensed applications - all where possible. The net gain is to stop paying for licenses where ever possible. Sure MS is the biggest thing they are moving away from because they had this huge name they could put in front of people especially in light of the new contract and their costs going up 10X with MS alone.. but why stop there? Why not make this change holistic if possible, where possible (again as @IRJ mentioned, there is likely software that's doesn't have a FOSS alternative or at least a version that will run on a FOSS OS).
Agreed. I misread the article so my argument is coming from different angle lol
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
You would think at this early stage, they would want the to have maximum visibility to attract the best developers to the project and have the code openly tested for vulnerabilities.
They are not coding anything. They are not developers. They are users picking FOSS solutions.
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@JaredBusch said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
You would think at this early stage, they would want the to have maximum visibility to attract the best developers to the project and have the code openly tested for vulnerabilities.
They are not coding anything. They are not developers. They are users picking FOSS solutions.
After two hours - I think IRJ and I are on the same page.
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
What Microsoft OpenSource OS? They are looking at alternatives to Microsoft.
Hence they named their project Microsoft Alternative
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@JaredBusch said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
What Microsoft OpenSource OS? They are looking at alternatives to Microsoft.
Hence they named their project Microsoft Alternative
Read above a few posts. I misunderstood article
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@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@JaredBusch said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
What Microsoft OpenSource OS? They are looking at alternatives to Microsoft.
Hence they named their project Microsoft Alternative
Read above a few posts. I misunderstood article
I was catching up and missed that when the infinite scroll didn’t load fast enough.
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@JaredBusch said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@JaredBusch said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@IRJ said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@DustinB3403 said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
@Dashrender said in Microsoft alternative - open source project?:
OK - that's not the same thing at all, and I'm certain that IRJ isn't thinking that way.
But it is a way that this was mentioned/eluded to.
Again I would think the bullet point Jared brought up is meant to be the opposite of what you are saying @DustinB3403 . I think it means whoever uses the Microsoft OpenSource OS keeps their data. It is not sent back to a governing body like MS. I also think they are referring to the type of data MS collects about how customers use their products not CIOs top secret spreadsheet.
What Microsoft OpenSource OS? They are looking at alternatives to Microsoft.
Hence they named their project Microsoft Alternative
Read above a few posts. I misunderstood article
I was catching up and missed that when the infinite scroll didn’t load fast enough.
Now JB is caught up too.
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This is the part that CERN's team is pissed about.
TL:DR CERN's contract with Microsoft as an Academic institution pricing was revoked, and priced jacked way the hell up.
A prime example is that CERN has enjoyed special conditions for the use of Microsoft products for the last 20 years, by virtue of its status as an “academic institution”. However, recently, the company has decided to revoke CERN’s academic status, a measure that took effect at the end of the previous contract in March 2019, replaced by a new contract based on user numbers, increasing the license costs by more than a factor of ten. Although CERN has negotiated a ramp-up profile over ten years to give the necessary time to adapt, such costs are not sustainable.However, recently, the company has decided to revoke CERN’s academic status, a measure that took effect at the end of the previous contract in March 2019, replaced by a new contract based on user numbers, increasing the license costs by more than a factor of ten.
Anticipating this situation, the IT department created the Microsoft Alternatives project, MAlt, a year ago.
