Non-IT News Thread
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
This is too true. Freedom in all its forms swings on a giant pendulum back and forth, in and out of the ages.
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@dafyre said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
It's the same as the original colonists.... today we often define religious freedom as the right to choose your own religion. But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
For a long time, America swung towards individual freedom to choose being the definition of religious freedom. But today it is swinging back and people are fighting for the freedom to tightly define the religious rights of others. It's not a new thing, it's America returning to its roots.
This is too true. Freedom in all its forms swings on a giant pendulum back and forth, in and out of the ages.
Which is why I don't agree with freedom conceptually. Not that I don't want to be "free" and others to be "free", but the idea is, I think, a silly concept. For example, the freedom to elect your own government includes the ability to remove freedoms. You could, strangely, lobby for a law that would have yourself put in jail just... because. Get enough support and that law could be passed. Why? Who knows. But you could make a law, by using your freedom to guide the government, to take away ALL of your other freedoms. Freedom is a potentially self defeating concept.
Freedom of speech brings the freedom to lie. Do you have the right to scream fire in a crowded theatre? In an empty one? In the forest? Once you start to curtail the freedom, when does it switch from being more free to less free?
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@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Yeah most laws today aren't doing much of anything useful. (read most of them) Some protect wildlife habitats, or other good things.
Don't make me tell you about the owls and the stupidity of "protecting" them by banning clear-cutting.
Can you share some more there?
Fine, have it your way.
So someone claimed that the barn owl population was plummeting due to clear cutting back in the 90s. "Where are the owls going to live?" they asked, all the freaking time. "You're taking away their home!" they cried. As it turned out, the barn owl population was actually exploding. For some reason, large birds need large, open areas to hunt in. Whoda thunk it huh? Kinda reminds me of the Polar Bear situation today.
So Barn Owls are a bad thing?
Where is my Barn Owl hat then?
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
One of the biggest issues with any discussion like this is that "freedom" isn't a real thing, or at least not a solid thing. Americans have "freedom" drilled into them their entire lives and the word is thrown about without much thought, as if all freedom is good and that more is always better. That's purely an Americanism and most of the world does not agree.
Interesting documentary, and I mean documentary, not conspiracy film, about the concept of freedom, choice, and how reality is different, and how the American idea of making people free, doesn't work:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trap_(TV_series)
It's on YouTube, etc. I also recommend Power of Nightmares, it's almost a prequal to this, but that's about Neoconservative policies and Islamic terrorism.
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@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Dashrender said in Non-IT News Thread:
@travisdh1 said in Non-IT News Thread:
@DustinB3403 said in Non-IT News Thread:
Yeah most laws today aren't doing much of anything useful. (read most of them) Some protect wildlife habitats, or other good things.
Don't make me tell you about the owls and the stupidity of "protecting" them by banning clear-cutting.
Can you share some more there?
Fine, have it your way.
So someone claimed that the barn owl population was plummeting due to clear cutting back in the 90s. "Where are the owls going to live?" they asked, all the freaking time. "You're taking away their home!" they cried. As it turned out, the barn owl population was actually exploding. For some reason, large birds need large, open areas to hunt in. Whoda thunk it huh? Kinda reminds me of the Polar Bear situation today.
So Barn Owls are a bad thing?
Where is my Barn Owl hat then?
Well, they do tend to eat small rodents that tend to make themselves annoying, so overall I'd say having lots of them around is a good thing.
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Freedom is really, I think, a means of controlling the population. Freedom in America is, in some ways, a form of taking away freedom itself. It's propaganda, a way for the government to guide people however they want.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
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@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
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@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
I wasn't critiquing your statements regarding the motivations of the pilgrims, but rather the broadness of the claim that Europe already had religious freedom at that time.
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@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
I wasn't critiquing your statements regarding the motivations of the pilgrims, but rather the broadness of the claim that Europe already had religious freedom at that time.
Fair enough... it had enough religious freedom to drive groups to come to America to ensure that what little there was was taken away
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
@Kelly said in Non-IT News Thread:
@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
But the country was founded on the ideal of taking that freedom away (because Europe already had it) and having the freedom to force everyone to be in your religion. My family came to America for that purpose and I am very ashamed of them. They came to ensure that their children would not be exposed to religious freedom so that they would not choose a more free and welcoming lifestyle as was and is popular in Europe.
That's a rather revisionist version of European history there. The 17th century was rife with religion based or justified wars. Religious persecution of non conformist sects was rampant, and the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics raged across large sections of the continent.
But not in the areas from which people were coming to the US. Holland, from where the pilgrams came, was religiously free, for example.
And Holland was an anomaly in Europe. In addition, it was in the middle of the 80 years war when the pilgrims left it. A political war justified by religious differences.
True, but the reason that they left was the broad religious tolerance. They wanted the opposite. And the primary religious intolerance in England was caused by... the pilgrims that didn't leave (the British civil war was them over throwing the government to set up a religious military state.)
I wasn't critiquing your statements regarding the motivations of the pilgrims, but rather the broadness of the claim that Europe already had religious freedom at that time.
Fair enough... it had enough religious freedom to drive groups to come to America to ensure that what little there was was taken away
Holland did, but Europe in general did not.
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The Earfull Tower at Disney Studios came down last night. An icon in place since 1989.
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@mlnews said in Non-IT News Thread:
The Earfull Tower at Disney Studios came down last night. An icon in place since 1989.
g0t autokorrekt?
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@nadnerB said in Non-IT News Thread:
@mlnews said in Non-IT News Thread:
The Earfull Tower at Disney Studios came down last night. An icon in place since 1989.
g0t autokorrekt?
What did I misspell?
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Ah, it's Earfell.
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@scottalanmiller said in Non-IT News Thread:
Ah, it's Earfell.
Is it? Oh yes, so it is. My bad. I was thinking of something else entirely. whoops!
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