Burned by Eschewing Best Practices

travisdh1

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

DustinB3403

@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.

How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?

wirestyle22

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.

How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?

I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.

User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?

DustinB3403

@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.

How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?

I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.

User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?

As good as an example as that is, it's not the same scenario of advice offering. If an SMB was having a conversation with a vendor and I happen to be there, and over hear the conversation. I'm then tagged to answer some questions, but my responses have the "oh you're insane" face.

When my proposal comes in for far under what the vendor might be proposing.

Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.

wirestyle22

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.

How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?

I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.

User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?

As good as an example as that is, it's not the same scenario of advice offering. If an SMB was having a conversation with a vendor and I happen to be there, and over hear the conversation. I'm then tagged to answer some questions, but my responses have the "oh you're insane" face.

When my proposal comes in for far under what the vendor might be proposing.

Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.

In that scenario you can't really expect to teach a paranoid business owner. There are still people in the world that think spending more money equals a better product. We can't change the world. I just wish those people luck and go on about my way. Not having expectations benefits you in these situations I find.

scottalanmiller

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.

How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?

Talking to rational people.

scottalanmiller

@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@wirestyle22 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@travisdh1 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@eneeldssi Great examples of Why we don't take advice from vendors., no, really, never, ever.

I get the same "look" when offering advice for free, as a completely outside party. As if I'm not a vendor or reseller my advice must be skewed.

How do you guys recommend getting around this kind of stubbornness?

I ask questions that show them the error of their ways.

User: Did you break my computer?
Me: Do you accuse your mechanic of breaking your car when you bring it in to get fixed?

As good as an example as that is, it's not the same scenario of advice offering. If an SMB was having a conversation with a vendor and I happen to be there, and over hear the conversation. I'm then tagged to answer some questions, but my responses have the "oh you're insane" face.

When my proposal comes in for far under what the vendor might be proposing.

Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.

In that scenario you can't really expect to teach a paranoid business owner. There are still people in the world that think spending more money equals a better product. We can't change the world. I just wish those people luck and go on about my way. Not having expectations benefits you in these situations I find.

That pretty much sums it up. Partly there is a skill to it, learning how to address irrationality, forcing them to explain their logic, making them state mistakes, leading them to the right conclusion. It's just a skill that some people have. Presenting a compelling argument, with numbers that they agree to that are not disputable is key. But there is no universal answer, lots and lots of companies are not rational and the average one will fail. It is just how it is. the average person will drive instead of flying no matter how much more dangerous it is and how much you can prove it statistically as well as logically. They just don't care.

Reid Cooper

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

Using the classic IPOD spew, I've been asked to sit in and listen, and when asked to respond and I call the proposal a pile of horse waste, I'm the one getting the dirty stares from the person who might actually be buying the horse pile.

Instead of calling the solution a pile of horse waste, do you ask the presenters how they overcome obstacles? For example you might ask some of these questions...

What is the value of the extra, high cost hardware to the business when redundancy is reduced - basically, how does this save the business money while more is being spent.
How do they overcome the natural risks inherent in a single point of failure given that dual controllers is a known risk; and have paperwork on that risk ready to go.
Ask them how they overcome the risks of SAM's dependency chain risk additions.
Ask them how since what they are proposing adds risk & adds cost how they feel it could be viably suggested. What factors justify being more costly and more risky. Ask them, not the customer, where the improved value is.
Ask them why moving from a redundant design to a non-redundant one with more cost and more things to fail and more dependencies is justifiable.
Ask them what happens when the SAN fails.
Ask them why they feel that the servers are fragile when they are provably safe, and why the SAN is safe when it is obviously risky.

Let them answer, instead of accusing them. Your presentation makes all of the difference.

If you are really, really confident, then you can play the "what kind of fool do you think my boss is" card. Stand with, not against, management. Imply that your management would never be fooled by such an obvious marketing tactic. Don't put management on the emotional defensive.

Reid Cooper

You can also point out things like....

"We obviously see how this benefits you personally, you are doubling the quote while pushing all of the risk on to us while making us dependent on you for support. No question there, we know why this is your go to solution. But we aren't interested in that, what we want to know is where does this benefit us given that clearly it's not for performance, safety or cost. I'm uncertain why you would feel comfortable pitching this without a clear RIO."

scottalanmiller

A totally different tactic.... find the materials on the IPOD, getting advice from vendors, Emperor's New Storage, risk assessment, etc. and compile them into a report. Make a nice PDF. GIve a pre-vendor presentation on just how much you know the IPOD, why it makes no sense, why it should never be proposed and how you need everyone to be on the lookout for a predatory vendor that might try to play them to make a big score because they were not ready ahead of time. Be the expert in the vendor's likely bad solution rather than the defensive guy that got blindsided and doesn't like his proposal being questions.

You want them to know, without a doubt, that you knew more about the vendor's likely proposed solution than the vendor does and make sure that your management understands that you considered it, evaluated it and knew that it was a ridiculous option before it get proposed, not after.

Then management can be mad with you, rather than being caught not understanding the discussion.

DustinB3403

@Reid-Cooper I've been asked to sit in, not to question. Meaning I don't get the option to raise those questions.

As if I'm supposed to be a fly on the wall, yet when we go to have a private discussion regarding the very same things you've mentioned in "Ask them . . . " that the result is "well you should've asked when they were here"

I totally get what you're saying and it is good advice, but my point was more about "What should be done to not be a passive person in the meetings upfront?"

IT Guy/Sales Person battle royal!

If that makes sense?

Reid Cooper

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

@Reid-Cooper I've been asked to sit in, not to question. Meaning I don't get the option to raise those questions.

Then I guess the real answer is... you are there only to be kept up to date, your opinion is not requested. If they don't care about your input, just sit there and watch them get sold down the river. No skin off your back.

Reid Cooper

@DustinB3403 said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

I totally get what you're saying and it is good advice, but my point was more about "What should be done to not be a passive person in the meetings upfront?"

If you are not allowed to talk in the meeting, then nothing.

eneeldssi

Man, that would kill me. I'm about trying to help offer the best solution, and when I see someone leading someone off in the wrong direction, I feel a moral obligation to call out someone's shit.

If the people can't handle that, or don't want you to open your mouth, you shouldn't be there.

Not that I'm suggesting to hurt yourself financially - the world we live in tells us to make our money where we can, because if you don't someone else will swoop in and take what should have been yours... but damn, if they really don't want you to talk, why do they even have you there?

scottalanmiller

@eneeldssi said in Burned by Eschewing Best Practices:

Man, that would kill me. I'm about trying to help offer the best solution, and when I see someone leading someone off in the wrong direction, I feel a moral obligation to call out someone's shit.

That's a common trait in IT.